Episode 8: Vet Tech Mick Ebeling: 00:02 Virtual reality, it's everywhere. Or to be more precise, everywhere is in virtual reality. Female Voice: 00:10 Welcome to Bora Bora. If you look to the left, you'll see one of our most beautiful beaches. Mick Ebeling: 00:16 Just strap on a headset and you're riding a roller coaster. Or whitewater rafting down a rushing river. Or immersed in a fantastic world with dragons and swords and fire. Mick Ebeling: 00:35 But we were wondering, is anyone using virtual reality for good? Anyone figuring out a way to use it to make people's lives better? To alleviate human suffering? To deal with real people and real problems? Anyone using this technology for the sake of humanity? So we went hunting for just such a story. And guess what? We found them everywhere. Mick Ebeling: 01:10 Later in this podcast, we're going to tell you some amazing stories of people who have done truly remarkable things with VR, but I want to focus on one person, not because the technology she is using is so incredible, but in a way, because it's not. What's so incredible and important is how this story came to be. Mick Ebeling: 01:31 Our hope is and has always been that in listening to these stories of impossibilities made possible, maybe someone, somewhere, maybe it's you, would say, "Wait a second. I can do this. I don't need to wait for permission or for some institution or establishment to give me permission. I'm just going to go do this myself. I'm going to try to change someone's life." Mick Ebeling: 01:57 And because this is our 4th of July episode, we were hoping to find someone who decided to do that for our veterans because they have given so much, so much for our country and more and more, it seems like we need to find ways to give back to them. Mick Ebeling: 02:15 So we went hunting for just such a person. And we found her, in of all places, a local TV station in Columbia, Missouri. I'm Mick Ebeling, and this is Not Impossible. Mick Ebeling: 02:31 This podcast is brought to you by Avnet, a company dedicated to helping creators of all types, find whatever they need, to get from idea to product and then get their product to market anywhere in the world. Mick Ebeling: 02:43 Today we're going to hear about how a regular person, someone just like you and me, decided to delve into the world of technology, but technology for the sake of humanity. Now she's not only helping so many others. She's also saved herself. Mick Ebeling: 03:02 People might think the life of a TV news reporter is glamorous, but Sarah Hill, a reporter from Columbia, Missouri found out that covering the news, sometimes you're just dealing with some really tough stuff. Sarah Hill: 03:14 Hey gang. Here's what ahead in 30 minutes on UNews. A Camden county mother is charged with slitting the throat of her nine-year-old baby. We have new details on that coming up at 11:00 AM. Mick Ebeling: 03:24 And if you think that is hard to listen to, imagine covering stories like that every day, day in and day out. Mick Ebeling: 03:31 Sarah was a news reporter for roughly 20 years, and a really good one. But when I talked to her, she told me that over time the news just became too much. Sarah Hill: 03:43 I am a recovering journalist. Mick Ebeling: 03:45 What does that mean? Sarah Hill: 03:46 For the last 25 years we covered a lot of bad stuff. And as a journalist you have to absorb sometimes the world's negativity. You have to step inside the souls of some of these individuals who've lost children, who experienced trauma in their life. Mick Ebeling: 04:06 I think that after a while that on a person, if they really internalized that, that would just weight so heavily on someone's soul. Sarah Hill: 04:12 That's the reason why sometimes journalists self-medicate, and there are ways that they learn to cope. Mick Ebeling: 04:21 So you got ... What was the breaking point for you? What was the point where you said, "I, just, I got to go do something different now"? Sarah Hill: 04:29 I had a panic attack. Had several of them, back to back, and stuttering, and just feeling of dread that you're going to die, sweating, your heart's racing. Mick Ebeling: 04:40 During the hospital stay she was put through a battery of tests. They put her on medications and tried other treatments as well. Sarah Hill: 04:48 None of it really helped. But what did help was technology. Mick Ebeling: 04:52 What do you mean? Sarah Hill: 04:54 I didn't want to take medication. I had tried that. And medication to help you sleep particularly was not something that I handled very well. So a friend of mine who's actually a coworker, worked with my husband, Dr. Jeff Tarrant wrote me a laptop prescription about 20 years ago to help me sleep. Mick Ebeling: 05:19 Okay, I bet you that's the first time you've heard that. A laptop prescription? But that's really what it was. He prescribed a program with a little airplane in it that responded not to controls on the keyboard, but to controls in Sarah's mind, and to her emotions. Sarah Hill: 05:36 I put an electrode on my forehead, and my goal was to quiet my brain. And when those brain waves quieted, the airplane on the laptop would go below a red bar. And it worked. After about a week, I had a great night's sleep. Mick Ebeling: 05:52 So that's step one in Sarah's journey. Now put that aside for a second because while Sarah was dealing with this anxiety, she was also starting to shift careers, although she might not have recognized that at the time. Sarah Hill: 06:05 Calvin Filbert was on a waiting list for two years for a chance to see the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Woman: 06:12 I know he drove a truck. He was in the military 18 years. He wanted to go so bad. Mick Ebeling: 06:17 She was reporting on something called Honor Flights. It's a national movement to get veterans to their war memorials in Washington DC. Sarah Hill: 06:26 So as a journalist I covered one in another city. We aired those stories and then we started getting phone call after phone call from veterans in our community saying, "We want an Honor Flight hub. Where do we call to get one?" Mick Ebeling: 06:39 So they went on air and asked if folks were interested in starting a local chapter, right there in Columbia, Missouri. Sarah Hill: 06:45 Make a long story short, we had a meeting in the TV station board room and we formed a charity, an Honor Flight charity, a hub of Honor Flight. Mick Ebeling: 06:53 As the fights would go out, Sarah would report on them. She'd tell the stories of the men and the women, how excited they were to go to their memorial, and how meaningful that was. Sarah Hill: 07:01 A lot of these men and women, specifically World War II veterans, they came home from the war. There wasn't a ticker tape parade. They just went to work. Mick Ebeling: 07:10 But it wasn't easy getting these veterans to the memorials, especially World War II veterans, because some of these men and women were in their 80s, 90s, even 100 years old. A lot of them because of their health concerns were advised not to go. Sarah Hill: 07:24 So I would get voicemails from some of them on my phone because at the time I was one of the people that they called to say that they weren't able to go because they don't have the strength sometimes to be on these flights or they're on too much heart medication that their doctor says they might not survive the trip if they go. Mick Ebeling: 07:42 And the voicemails just kept coming. Veterans, all very emotional, saying they just couldn't go. It was a lot for Sarah. It was also very personal because as she was working with these veterans, her thoughts would drift back again and again to her own grandfather. Sarah Hill: 07:58 My grandpa was a World War II veteran. Actually he was an Army Air Corps. That was what they called it back then during World War II. But yeah, but he passed away before he had the opportunity to see the memorial, and he would have loved. I mean, he just thoroughly enjoyed getting to see it with all of his other fellow soldiers, sailors, marines, all at the same time. Mick Ebeling: 08:21 And I get it. My grandfather was in the Army Air Corps. My father was in the Air Force. I was at the Air Force Academy myself for a while. I believe in the military. I understand what Sarah was thinking. She was thinking about her grandfather, but also she couldn't stop thinking about all of the other vets, the ones who were still alive, but they couldn't make the trip because their physical limitations. She started to think that there had to be a way to get these vets to their memorials, to pay their respects, even if it wasn't on an airplane. Sarah Hill: 08:57 Someone said, "Well, did you know that you could actually capture them in VR, and you wouldn't have to physically go to DC. You wouldn't have to worry about the bandwidth, the technology, all the volunteers?" And I said, "Really? That's great." Mick Ebeling: 09:10 Sounded pretty simple. It turned out not so simple. Sarah Hill: 09:14 So I got a bid on what it would cost to create a VR film. It was half a million dollars. Mick Ebeling: 09:20 No. Sarah Hill: 09:21 That was the company that, yeah. Now granted this was in 2013 probably, 2013 or 2014. I thought, "We're media people. We know how to capture video. We can do it with one camera. Surely we should be able to do it with 16 to 24 cameras," right? Mick Ebeling: 09:40 So she taught herself. She got equipment on loan and she called her company StoryUp. Sarah Hill: 09:45 And by golly we created one piece and then another and then another and another. So we have about four experiences on one of the apps now where they can see the World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Women's memorial. And then most recently the USS Nimitz. Mick Ebeling: 10:02 Amazing. Mick Ebeling: 10:05 Since then, thousands of veterans, thousands have used the StoryUp VR experience to get to their memorials. And I know that might not seem like such a big deal to a lot of people, but for these veterans it's a huge deal. When you listen to them tell their stories, you realize this is one of the most important and meaningful moments they could hope for, one they never thought they could experience, but now they can. Rick King: 10:31 Okay. I'm Rick King. I live in central Illinois, little town called Maroa. I'm 69 years old. I do have terminal cancer. I'm fighting that real hard and doing a real good job, and that's the reason I did not go on the Honor Flight. Mick Ebeling: 10:49 Rick is an army vet and he desperately wanted to get to the Vietnam Memorial. It meant a lot to him. And when the doctors told him he was too sick to travel, he was devastated. Rick King: 11:01 When they told us, no, I could not go, yeah, it's gut wrenching because a friend of mine, he was going on the same very flight. We were going to sit together and shoot the bowl and have a good time, and then that was taken away from me. And then all of a sudden they come up with this virtual reality and it was a spur of the moment. Mick Ebeling: 11:24 All of a sudden Rick, who spends a lot of time on a hospital bed in his home is now transported to Washington DC. Rick King: 11:33 Because it was kind of gloomy and overcast here that day and it was so sunny and bright in Washington. Oh, that made me feel really good. Cheers you up. Mick Ebeling: 11:42 And seeing the memorial made him feel, it gave him closure in a way he had never expected. In his heart he felt like his army buddies were there at that memorial with him, and this was his way of saying goodbye. Rick King: 11:57 Sure. I got very emotional. I teared up and thinking that there's oh my buddy there. It's unbelievable. I remember when him and I used to sneak out and drink beer. And now he doesn't even know where he's at. But he's there at the Vietnam Memorial. Mick Ebeling: 12:13 And let's be clear. Sarah and her team are doing all of this for free, just as a way to give back to our veterans, and they can barely keep up with the demand. Sarah Hill: 12:23 Right now we have a large waiting list of more than a hundred people. These are terminally ill and aging, 80 and 90 year old veterans. We have six headsets that we're shipping around the nation to try to reach them in time. And every other week we get an email from a family member, a son or a daughter who says their veterans passed away because we haven't had the ability to get them a headset in time. Mick Ebeling: 12:51 But as emotionally powerful as these virtual visits to the memorials where, Sarah started noticing that the effects went beyond that. They were affecting the veterans in ways that no one could have ever dreamed of. Sarah Hill: 13:04 What really struck us is one of the first times we were giving a veteran a tour and we went in and his caretaker told us, "Just so you know, he's not able to lift his arms above his head. He doesn't have that much strength. So you'll have to put the headset on him because he can't lift his arms." Sarah Hill: 13:24 We put the headset on them. And halfway through the piece there's this touching moment where they're on an Honor Flight and they are coming out of the airport and there the crowd is up on their feet and applauding just for them as they come out. And during that moment in the film, this veteran whose caretaker told me he wasn't able to lift his hands above his head, had his arms straight out trying to touch the other veterans that were going by him. Mick Ebeling: 13:56 I love it. Sarah Hill: 13:57 And it was at that moment that you know we thought, "This is affecting them, it's affecting their physiology." Mick Ebeling: 14:05 Affecting them? Hang on a second. Think about that. This guy was incapable of lifting his arms. Yet thanks to this virtual experience, he was now lifting his arms for the first time in who knows how long? And that's when Sarah put two and two together. She suddenly made the connection with what she had experienced. Remember the laptop prescription, the airplane game that helped her cope with her own anxiety? Well, she thought maybe there was more to this technology than meets the eye. We'll tell you where that leads after the break. Mick Ebeling: 14:40 You, yes you are invited to the 2019 Not Impossible Awards. Join us on June 1st in downtown Los Angeles to celebrate the inspiring work of people and companies who share in Not Impossible's mission of creating innovative technology to improve the wellbeing of others. For tickets and information go to notimpossible.com/awards. Mick Ebeling: 15:10 This is a podcast dedicated to technology for the sake of humanity. But it's also about the people behind that technology. If that's you, Avnet can help, no matter what you build. Why? Because they are the first company ever to offer true end-to-end solutions for product development in-house. That way creators in any corner of the world can take an idea from prototype all the way through mass production. Are you a startup and established OEM? Do you need help designing your product or organizing your workflow or getting stuff to market? Avnet's got your back. Your world is one that's always changing. And that's why Avnet is here to help you reach further. Mick Ebeling: 15:51 And we want to give a special shout out to Avnet's engineering communities, Hackster and Element14 who helped creators vet and invent the technology of tomorrow. Want to do more than just listen to this podcast? Maybe something like taking on the next Not Impossible challenge? Go to podcastnotimpossible.com to find info for you and for anyone who wants to take their project one step further. Mick Ebeling: 16:20 So Sarah Hill, this recovering journalist turned her talents towards helping veterans visit their war memorials using virtual reality to get them there. But then she started seeing something really, really interesting that was happening to some of them. The experience was affecting them in ways that reminded her of her own experience when she was suffering anxiety attacks and that doctor prescribed her the virtual airplane game that helped calm her mind. So Sarah went back to that doctor to see if he could help her figure out what was going on with these veterans. Jeff Tarrant: 16:51 They would cry. They would smile. They would laugh. And so it was very clear something was happening. And so that really is what started kind of the idea of like, we should measure this. We should see what's actually going on when people are in these experiences. Mick Ebeling: 17:05 This is that doctor, Dr. Jeff Tarrant. He's a psychologist who works with what's called biofeedback. Jeff Tarrant: 17:11 So biofeedback is really any kind of a system where you are measuring some aspect of your physiology. So it could be skin temperature. It could be sweat gland activity in your fingertips. It could be your breathing. Mick Ebeling: 17:24 Or your brainwaves. He thought, why not see what these experiences are doing to the brain. Jeff Tarrant: 17:29 Because it's immersive and because it looks and feels real, we wanted to see, well, what is actually happening. And so brainwave seemed like an obvious way to do that. Mick Ebeling: 17:39 So he and Sarah teamed up and started doing research. They created meditative VR experiences like gliding up a waterfall, filmed in the lush green forests of Oregon. Mick Ebeling: 17:50 Now I know what you're thinking. "Meditations, biofeedback. This isn't so new," right? Believe it or not, few people have really studied this to find out if and how it really works. Jeff Tarrant: 18:03 There's very little research on any of this. The research is all really brand new. We started with just a few case studies of hooking people up, measuring their brainwave activity, and seeing what happened when they were in one of these four or five minute experiences. And very quickly what we saw was stress regions of the brain quieted down and they quieted down very quickly. Mick Ebeling: 18:30 This is how it works. Before you put on the VR headset, you put on an EEG headband. It goes across your forehead and has electrodes on it. Jeff Tarrant: 18:39 And by active electrodes, we're not zapping anybody. You're just measuring what's happening in the front of the brain. And that activity is what's controlling the virtual reality experience. Mick Ebeling: 18:50 So this headband is sending data to the VR headset and to the experience, and it measures which side of the brain is showing more activity. And that turns out to be very important. Jeff Tarrant: 19:00 The reason that we're measuring that is because we know from lots and lots of previous research that when the brain is more active, in this case gamma, on the left side, people tend to feel more positive, more optimistic, happier. They tend to be more approach oriented so they move toward things. Whereas if the activation is leaning over toward the right side, people tend to be more negative, more pessimistic. Mick Ebeling: 19:28 As you relax, your internal feelings become manifested or actualized within the virtual reality. So for example, if you're in that waterfall, the more you relax, the more you go up the waterfall. But if you get anxious, you start to dip and the screen goes red and a voice comes on to reengage you or to calm you. Mick Ebeling: 19:50 So this whole business of controlling VR with your mind and not by moving your arms and legs, that's actually pretty new. But it's something we're going to see more of in the future when it comes to using VR for our physical health and our mental health. Mick Ebeling: 20:04 Again, this is not some loosey-goosey intuitive idea. This is backed by hard science. They have two papers under peer review right now to make sure they've got their feet firmly planted on the ground while they reach for a goal that's pretty lofty. Jeff Tarrant: 20:19 We saw that we could make an impact, that we could make any emotional impact with these experiences. The whole purpose behind StoryUp is wanting to have a positive impact on people. How can we use technology for good? How can we use virtual reality to help people? Mick Ebeling: 20:36 And that's when they had their aha moment. Sarah started out trying to help veterans. But then she and Jeff wondered, could this help other people, people in the most stressful jobs dealing with trauma every day? Danny Spry Jr.: 20:49 My name is Danny Spry Jr. I'm a Columbia firefighter. I'm a member of the Columbia Professional Firefighters International Association of Firefighters Local 1055. Mick Ebeling: 21:00 They decided to give it a shot with some folks who were not only in stressful jobs, but were also having trouble dealing with all that stress. Danny told us he suffers from PTSD, he gets anxious, and it's all related to the rigors and trauma of being a firefighter. Danny Spry Jr.: 21:15 So I've seen a lot of things from 1995 to current day, and I always learned to suppress them. There's things that bother you. There's things that bother the men and women that go on these calls daily, but we don't talk about. Mick Ebeling: 21:29 Danny said it was hard to recognize at first. Danny Spry Jr.: 21:32 I've lived through reckless behavior. I've lived through my family and what I've put them through, my kids seeing me intoxicated, my kids seeing me angry, my wife dealing with everything that was bottled up inside of me. And there were signs with my drinking, my aggressive behavior, always cranky, always edgy. Mick Ebeling: 21:57 Danny who now tries to help other folks dealing with PTSD was curious if Sarah's technology could help. He didn't know what he was getting into at first. Danny Spry Jr.: 22:06 I sat down in this chair and they put the virtual reality goggles on me and it was kind of weird to adjust to at first. You're like, "I've got something over my face." I didn't know what to expect from it. But once I did it, it was very relaxing and it was soothing. Mick Ebeling: 22:28 Sarah had him do a guided meditation set in Mexico's Riviera Maya. There's white sand all around him, bright blue water. He could practically feel the heat of the sun at his back. Danny Spry Jr.: 22:37 I've maybe been to the ocean once in my life. It's almost like you're there and you hear the waves and you hear the seagulls and the people around and it's just, it was, it was very relaxing for me. I could sit there in the chair and with the same thing, there was a voice, "Look for the sun. What are you feeling? Do you remember your greatest memory?" It's just a step at a time towards relaxing you. Mick Ebeling: 23:06 So the more Danny talked to us about the potential that this had to change his life, the more curious I got. So I decided I need to take this for a spin myself and see what this is all about. Female Voice: 23:16 Imagine breathing in joy, love- Sarah Hill: 23:21 Adjust them so they're in focus. Female Voice: 23:22 Or gratitude. Mick Ebeling: 23:24 So I'm in the headset and this is the voice that's talking to me, telling me to be grateful, calm, and happy, and to remember positive memories. Female Voice: 23:35 Your brain waves will propel you to the top of the waterfall. Mick Ebeling: 23:39 What do you see? Female Voice: 23:41 Take a moment to recall- Mick Ebeling: 23:42 There's a waterfall and a person at the base of the waterfall. Female Voice: 23:45 A time when you were filled with joy, love, or appreciation. Sarah Hill: 23:51 See those blue wavy lines? Mick Ebeling: 23:53 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sarah Hill: 23:53 Those are your brainwaves. That's your gamma asymmetry, your feelings and positivity. Mick Ebeling: 23:59 Got you. Mick Ebeling: 23:59 And I'm floating up this waterfall, and water is cascading down in front of me. It's super green. There's trees and moss. And superimposed onto it on my own brainwaves it's this blue squiggly line going up and down. And if I keep those blue lines above the red line, I start moving up. Sarah Hill: 24:18 Are you floating? Mick Ebeling: 24:18 Oh yeah. Sarah Hill: 24:21 You're powering that with your brain. Mick Ebeling: 24:26 So I'm, right now I'm floating up the side of the waterfall and I'm watching this blue line above a red line that's measuring how positive I am. And the more I talk to you, the more it kind of waivers. But the more I focus on something positive, I'm actually pausing on ... Oops, I dipped down. Sarah Hill: 24:48 So laugh, like a big, like a real ... No, no, a real laugh, a real, a real guffaw. Mick Ebeling: 24:56 I'm actually visualizing my first wave I ever caught. And every time I do that it goes screaming up. Sarah Hill: 25:05 The sun's behind you. You can turn around. And your goal is to make it to the top of the waterfall. Are you close? Mick Ebeling: 25:11 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very close. Mick Ebeling: 25:14 And folks, I'm not moving my body except for looking around a bit. I'm controlling everything with my thoughts, with my brain. Sarah Hill: 25:21 After you go up the waterfall, you will eventually go down. Mick Ebeling: 25:23 Okay. Sarah Hill: 25:24 And then the experience stops. So I'll take it off of your face. Mick Ebeling: 25:28 Very cool. Mick Ebeling: 25:31 They call the product Healium, heal like you're healing someone, and they think these types of meditative experiences could train people to shift their brain states. And I got to say, I know for some people this sounds like all sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya kind of thing, but you know what? The science seems to be saying that it works. And what's more important, it could work for the people who need it most. I say, let's see how far this can go. And Sarah and Jeff think that this could go pretty far. Sarah Hill: 26:02 In the future we see Healium being handed out at a natural disaster, much like bottled water. There's no reason why people can't have some virtual peace after a tornado, after a tsunami, after a crisis situation that they can just downshift their brain. Mick Ebeling: 26:26 So that's the story of StoryUp. But as I said at the beginning of the show, this is just one use of VR technology for the sake of humanity. The more we looked around, the more we found people using VR for the most amazing things. One of them won a Not Impossible Award last year. It's called Project Delta. Mick Ebeling: 26:45 The sad reality is that this country is suffering through one of the worst drug epidemics we've ever seen. And the sad reality is that even when you can get an addict into treatment, more than 8 out of 10 will relapse in the first year. Mick Ebeling: 26:59 Well, what if you could use VR in therapy to put them in virtual situations that trigger those relapses and then help them in that moment to learn to cope with those triggers in the real world? PatrickBordnick: 27:09 It's pretty absurd that someone that's addicted to a substance can't afford treatment. That doesn't sit well with me. Mick Ebeling: 27:19 This is Patrick Bordnick, the doctor behind Project Delta. PatrickBordnick: 27:22 So Project Delta is basically clicking a couple buttons on a smart phone and you now have a virtual bar, a virtual heroin shooting gallery, maybe a nightclub that you can now put people into those settings where they would relapse and teach them skills. It's not a cure for addiction, but I believe it's going to be an effective tool to help us design therapies that are more effective for long-term change. Mick Ebeling: 27:49 And that's just one example. We found so many more. There are startups like a company called Floreo using VR for therapy with kids with autism, or Karuna Labs, which is using VR to help rehabilitate people with chronic pain. And researchers in Tel Aviv have found ways to use it in rehab and physical therapy for people with Parkinson's disease. So I think the lesson is that we're only beginning to learn the possibilities of using VR technology for the sake of humanity. Mick Ebeling: 28:17 But I want to say one more thing about Sarah Hill and StoryUp, because there's one more reason that I wanted to focus on her use of this technology. You see, the reason I was so touched by Sarah's story is that she's like me. I was just a producer too. Not a TV producer, but a film and animation producer. And I could've kept just going at that. But somewhere along the way, I was given a chance to help someone, to help create technology for the sake of humanity. And of course, I had my doubts. Of course, I thought, "Who the heck am I to try and pull this off?" Mick Ebeling: 28:51 And that's just the point. You don't have to be a master scientist or have special degrees or have an expertise in chronic pain or Parkinson's or autism. You, listening to this podcast right now, you have all the credentials you need. You have the power to change the world. You just have to look around. Who is that one person in your life and your community? Who's that person that you might walk by or drive by on your way to work every day? Maybe they're struggling. Maybe they're down on their luck. Maybe you know them personally. Maybe you just see them from afar. What if you were the next Sarah Hill? What if you were the person that decided, I'm just going to try to help that person? And that's the reality that I can picture. And I don't need a headset to do that. Mick Ebeling: 29:44 So thanks for listening to Not Impossible. Thanks again to our sponsor, Avnet, a company that provides true end-to-end technology solutions to help people who make anything anywhere in the world reach further. Mick Ebeling: 29:56 And on this special 4th of July episode, we want to salute Avnet with more than 240 employees who are veterans of the United States Armed Services. Avnet is a proud supporter of veteran outreach and recruitment. I want to invite you to go check out Avnets communities, Hackster, the world's fastest growing developer community for learning, programming, and building hardware. And Element14, the biggest designer engineer community on the planet. You can find links to their websites on ours, podcastnotimpossible.com. And if you want to see a 2D version of what I was looking at in the VR headset, that's up on our website too. Mick Ebeling: 30:33 Joanna Clay produced this episode. Our associate producer was Vicki Schairer. Our development director, Erin Sullivan. Director of partnerships, Joe Babarsky. And our executive producers are Phil Lerman and me. I'm Mick Ebeling. Until next time, remember, commit first and then figure it out. I know that sounds crazy, but it's not impossible.